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Polite Indian said in September 15th, 2006 at 8:17 am    

I agree with your assessment of the situation. My take on this is … if it is not against religion then might as well sing it. If it is against religion then it is a difficult choice and some might chose to sing it but most will not.

More on it here at http://politeindian.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/whats-up-with-vande-mataram/

Atlantean said in September 15th, 2006 at 8:18 am    

“Making bharat mata as a goddess, people tend to associate fight for freedom as a religious duty.”

The concept of Jihad, is it not a fight for freedom as a religious duty? So, why not interpret the nationalist movement as a Jihad (so that it comes within the religious scope of Muslims) against an oppressive colonial power instead of solely as religious worship?

Vande Mataram is not worship in the broader sense, Shareeq. Even if the word’s semantic meaning is worship, I dont see a problem if the spirit or the gist is accepted/understood - merely praising the motherland. Dont you think it is merely a fundamentalist interpretation - focussing on the semantics rather than focussing on the spirit/gist? You surely must be knowing the dangers of fundamentalist interpretation of anything - the Wahhabi sect/the Taliban/Al Qaeda get sanction from a fundamentalist interpretation of Quranic verses instead of focussing on the gist or spirit of Islam.

Regards.

Polite Indian said in September 15th, 2006 at 8:21 am    

atlantean:
Add the hindutva brigade to your list of fundamentalists.

I, for one, am against any kind of religious fundamentalism.

Sharique said in September 15th, 2006 at 8:53 am    

@Atlantean

“The concept of Jihad, is it not a fight for freedom as a religious duty? So, why not interpret the nationalist movement as a Jihad”

Well 2 different religious perspectives are involved here. And its easier to exhort people if they are of the same religion because of the similarilty they share. As a matter of fact the freedom struggle of India was a Jihad against British. Fatwas were declared and it was actually labelled as Jihad. And let me also bring to your notice another aspect of Quran that is not known to many; Quran has a mention of major Jihad that would be declared and one of them in the one against the British. I can quote sources but i need to dig in.
So Muslims have absolutely no problem with the fight against oppression but when it comes to doing something against Islam then we are wary of doing so. And plus i see no reason why someone someone should be uncomfortable with us following religion and doing away with things which are contrary to our beliefs.

“Vande Mataram is not worship in the broader sense”
Hmm….i know but it indirectly implies so. And the song is usually accompanied with an idol which is something totally contrary to Islamic beliefs.

BTW thanks for another variant of my name shareeq :D
@Polite Indian
i agree with you on the fundamentalist part.

Atlantean said in September 15th, 2006 at 10:40 am    

I hope Shareeq is not wrong :)
I’m afraid you, Polite Indian and myself have hit a deadend as I did with my friend Aftab in a discussion on the same issue on my blog. No point discussing further. Have exams coming up. Maybe I should just sit and study.

Khuda Hafis!

Sharique said in September 15th, 2006 at 10:49 am    

I prefer just sharique :) I read saw that comment section on your and Polite Indian’s blog. And as i said in the post..there are many more important issues to deal with

so u student as well..same here :)

Schacht said in September 17th, 2006 at 8:55 pm    

So your religion forbades you from singing Vande Matharam.

I request you to satisfy my curiosity here…regarding some possible future scenarios - though hypothetical for now.

What if India is attacked by a Muslim Majority Nation and that entity’s leader appeals to you group of Indians using some (plausibly existing ?) Hadith, using the Name of the Prophet and sentiments of the Ummah - to help them in conquering us Indian people of different faith and in bringing this land (Dar-ul-Harb) under your commonly shared faith (Dar-ul-Islam).

Is there a Hadith, using a concept like Takia or something similar - that can be stated & used by you group of Indians to have a go at us group of Indians or aid the attacker ?.

What does the Quran and etc rules of the Islamic Religion advise you people to do - in this situation ?

I understand that when opening yourself to the whole world via the Net - you would have forseen such questions being asked of you, particularly when you wear your faith with your name across multiple websites. So sorry for the inconvenience the question here causes.

Would appreciate any answer from you and Indians of your faith.

Schacht said in September 17th, 2006 at 8:59 pm    

Reposting my question…Seem to have tuned on the whisper feature.

So your religion forbades you from singing Vande Matharam.

I request you to satisfy my curiosity here…regarding some possible future scenarios - though hypothetical for now.

What if India is attacked by a Muslim Majority Nation and that entity’s leader appeals to you group of Indians using some (plausibly existing ?) Hadith, using the Name of the Prophet and sentiments of the Ummah - to help them in conquering us Indian people of different faith and in bringing this land (Dar-ul-Harb) under your commonly shared faith (Dar-ul-Islam).

Is there a Hadith, using a concept like Takia or something similar - that can be stated & used by you group of Indians to have a go at us group of Indians or aid the attacker ?.

What does the Quran and etc rules of the Islamic Religion advise you people to do - in this situation ?

I understand that when opening yourself to the whole world via the Net - you would have forseen such questions being asked of you, particularly when you wear your faith with your name across multiple websites. So sorry for the inconvenience the question here causes.

Would appreciate any true answer from you and the Indians of your faith to my query.

TIA,

Sharique said in September 17th, 2006 at 10:01 pm    

I don’t mind revealing my real identity and with that comes my faith. I loathe posting as anon so always use my real identity. And i certainly won’t mind questions like these. In fact this question was asked in a previous post so i am just copy pasting the relevant part.
“If suppose a pure Islamic nation does exists then it would never be wage a war against India, considering the fact that India is a home to second largest muslim populated country. The situation is highly unlikely. And plus Islam doesn’t allow killing behind the back. How can the muslims citizens of this country help? India is home to us, just that organisations like the RSS want us modify religion so as to strengthen our allegiance to the nation but they don’t realise one thing, a good muslim is far better than a person who adheres to their ideology (regarding muslims).

And if suppose India goes on to butcher muslims in some part of the world then i would oppose but never resolve to violent means like killing innocent citizens. And if the situation really gets worse then i would be left with no other option but to leave this country because of the resentment that would grow in me. Well in short muslims cannot change or their image to others until and unless they are better muslims and i suppose i don’t have to repeat that a good muslim doesnt mean anti-non-muslism!”

Regarding the other details on Hadith and Quran verses, i am not an authority on them so have to dig in the exact details but the gist of my acquired Islamic knowledge concerning the question was summed above. I will get back to you asap.

Schacht said in September 18th, 2006 at 12:13 am    

Many Thanks for the quick reply. I will wait for the Hadith and Quran connections.

I have some more queries and would like to seek true answers from you or any Indian of your faith.

Just like how you would like to oppose if India goes on to butcher Muslims in some part of the world - I would like to know what you think of the below few realities in the Muslim world with respect to other religions.

(1) In Saudi Arabia and some of the other Arabian countries - non muslim people are officially not allowed to follow their way of worshipping god both in the public and in their own private places. I think barring Oman and Dubai - there are no places where Christian & Hindu worshipping places have been allowed in the public. During Ramadan, there are stricter rules for the non-Muslims in SA and a fewer countries. At the same time, SA, Iran and other countries want to fund the madarassas around the world in many countries, including India, to spread their form of Islam. Now this is a great example of hypocrisy. Isnt it ?.

(2) In SA, Hindus are officially recognised & treated at some third level below Muslims & the second string Christian people. This can be observed - in one instance - by the compensation levels given for a victim in any crime that happens in SA. Other Arab countries are not any less intolerant and bigoted.

(3) Hindus have almost totally been eradicated from Pakistan, Bangladesh by the majority people of your same faith. So have many of the Hindu temples in those places. Hindu persecution still continues unabated in these countries. Something similar has been happenning to the Hindu minority in Kashmir.

So in your interpreation - the majority people of those lands can be termed as not good muslims as per your words in your previous response ?

While, In India - the muslims have been given their own social laws (but criminal laws alone are same as for all other people maybe due to the fact that jail sentences are more easier to bear than cutting of Hands, Stoning to Death etc), complete freedom to carry out their religious activities, conversions , hajj subsidies & etc.

So…for all your and in general the talk of Islam’s humane-ness, equality and other sweet sounding words - the action shown by your faith folk is completely opposite to whatever you say is in the Quran & etc. There is no real practice of whatever that is being said to be the Quran. Am i mistaken in saying that ?.

Why should an Indian of a different faith like me look with objectivity & non-partisan feelings at a person like you who belongs to this faith that simply refuses to treat people of other faith with dignity in its own lands ?

While Israel attacking lebanon, US attacking Iraq, cartoons by danish press and pope’s sayings can make your community seethe in anger and indulgence in violence but persecution of your fellow indians of other faiths & their faiths in lands where the majority belong to your faith - don’t elicit even the smallest condemnation or concern from the community.

What should i resort to undo the hatred & sadness that develops in me when i see what is being done to people of my faith in countries where people of your faith are in majority ?. Why must i not condone any mistreatment of your group of Indians - who dont practice whatever you claim to be the real faith of yours but still crib & claim any criticism to be discrimination.

Is it even possible for you to request your fellow people in those lands to give equal recognition for people like us ?. Can’t you make this request by showing the writings in Quran itself as the basis for equality ?.

At the same time - I respect the many Indians of you group who are exemplary humans and helping the nation & the World in general through their work & ethics.
But that is a minority in comparison - IMO. It is this recognition of the presence of these people and the fervent attempts to prevent the clouding of my mind with undue contempt & lighting up of the self-consuming fire of hatred in me, that questions the reason for dislike of people of your faith and converts it into a more benign ignorance for now. This very fire of dislike & bigotry towards other faiths - is what i perceive in these majority lands has made them less peaceful, socially, technologically, scientifically,education-wise backward inspite of all the oil wealth.
Maybe it is prophet’s way of punishing them and others who indulge in these things. I am inclined to feel that this punishment is also visible in some parts of our country.

By asking these questions - I am not being a fundamentalist. Just seeking answers for some legitimate questions that arise in an Indian of another faith who is very conscious of things happening in the whole world & keeps asking these questions since most of the Muslims whom he/she has asked this either ignore him/her or brand the person as a fundamentalist even and a potential mischief-monger. Not a multitude have i asked but a very very few among them have been direct with their answers. Maybe, these are really difficult questions to confront people with. But i feel - answering these questions honestly will remove much of the cobweb & misunderstandings being built around the minds of non-muslim people and their opinion of people of your faith.

If i am asking tough questions - please do feel free to ignore my queries.

I know this is too long for a comment and query - but i think its important for me to spend my time and post this.

Eliciting your response.

Regards.

Adnan said in September 18th, 2006 at 5:17 am    

Dear Schacht,

Saudi Arabia is not at all an ideal state for Me, an Indian Muslim. It has the holy sites of Islam that’s all. I don’t consider this is a model state at all. And not just about worship but the treatment of women and so many other things which I and many of us don’t like but it is not in our hands.

These are monarchies supported by US and UK, you know better, but for what reason except oil. May be an exception could be demanded (for not having a temple or church) by residents of a country if they don’t have any native non-Muslim remaining just like Vatican City. Though this is not my view. If peple settle there and the country gives them citizenship, t hey are certainly entitled to their places of worship.

Rest of the Arab countries of course should give due rights to minorities. But again they are monarchies and we are all waiting for revolution, changes and their turn from monarchies to modern governance. As Muslim countries they ought to emulate the conduct of Caliphs (like Hazrat Omar not praying near the Church despite insistence of Christians as he felt some Muslims in future might try to want a mosque there) or the conduct of Muslim world for a 1,000 years when Jews were mistreated, burnt, made to wear distinguishing robes. Always under Muslim rule the Jews lived and prospered in Jerusalem, rest of Arab world, North Africa and other parts.

The Saudi state and other Arab states are not giving rights to their own people ( you have already called them bigoted) so how should we expect them to be tolerant of others (ofcourse American forces are an exception).

If South Africa treats people badly, that’s condemnable for a country. But I guess, they have recently came out of the dark years of apartheid so it might need a few more years to change. What is happening in Kashmir is complex, the migration of Hindus is an issue but the killing of Muslims (many more Muslims are killed in Kashmir every year at the hands of security forces and milititants than Hindus) and the problem is not of Hindu or Muslim, it is political and a human issue. Didn’t Saddam did the same to the Kurds (and if the latter were Christians or Hindus, it could have taken the other turn, isn’ it).

In fact, driving out people, killing them have been going on since aeons. Earlier there was no media and no one was aware. The fact that we are aware of these problems and able to discuss is too good but it should help in resolving and not bias against just Muslims. The anit-Muslim propaganda is reason behind such a situation where massacres by Pol Pot are forgotten but if the perpetrator of violence is a Muslim, it becomes the ‘intolerant face of Islam’. As an Indian Muslim, I and millions of my fellow Muslims, condemn all forms of inhuman acts, stand by rights of all human beings just that our voices don’t reach you. How many correspondents does CNN tat sent embedded journalists to Iraq has in India (except Delhi anywhere?).

Sharique said in September 18th, 2006 at 12:11 pm    

Schacht
Here are few incidents from history (i hope u have read that article on is islam a peaceful religion? that exhorts muslims to think beyong quran…sorry we as muslims don’t have to).

if you again look at the practice of Prophet Muhammad, he provided excellent facilities for non-Muslims. For instance in his time, the monks of Mount Sinai were given protection. The monasteries were protected, the monks themselves were protected from any attack or persecution. Churches could not be pulled down to be replaced by mosques or to build houses. They were seen as a place of sanctuary and protected by the Islamic state

Confirming this is the following statement of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, in which he sheds light on the philosophy of human rights in Islam. An Arabic word for non-Muslim is Dhimmi. Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them in more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” Here we have the highest, the most revered and most esteemed Prophet of Islam, himself being the champion for non-Muslim minorities.

 

“While on his deathbed, the Second Caliph `Umar ibn al-Khattab dictated a long will consisting of instructions for the next caliph. Here, is the last sentence of that historic document:

“I instruct you on behalf of the people who have been given protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet [i.e. the non-Muslim minorities within the Islamic state known as dhimmis]. Our covenant to them must be fulfilled, we must fight to protect them, and they must not be burdened beyond their capabilities”.

At that time Caliph `Umar was lying in pain because of the wounds inflicted on him by a non-Muslim who had stabbed him with a dagger soaked in poison while he was leading the Fajr (Morning) Prayer. It should also be remembered that he was the head of a vast empire ranging from Egypt to Persia. From normal rulers of his time or ours, we could have expected vengeance and swift reaction. From a very forgiving head of state we could have expected an attempt to forget and forgive - and that would be considered noble. But a command to protect the minorities and take care of them?

Sharique said in September 18th, 2006 at 12:19 pm    

My reply is not complete…have an exam tomorrow so will reply u after that

Schacht said in September 18th, 2006 at 10:22 pm    

Adnan,

Just in case you misinterpreted the use of SA in my previous Long post - the SA there actually meant Saudi Arabia and not South Africa (as i believe it to be the way you have interpreted it). South Africa is a modern progressive democractic country that treats its minority with all the due respects & equality for them. Saudi Arabia is the coverse of South Africa.

So what about Pakistan, Bangladesh and their despicabe treatment of Christians, Hindus and even the people of other Muslim sects like Qaddianis, Ismailis, Ahamediyyas (remember - Physicist & Nobel lauerate Abdus Salam - who was not even honoured in his death by the govt. of Pakistan -because he was after all born a Ahmadeyyia ) ?.

Under these conditions - Its not difficult and sometimes justifiable for less-discerning people of other faith to develop negative notions about Muslims when the non-muslim & even some muslim people are subjected to gross inequality and persecution in many Muslim Majority countries in this modern world . The unforgettable Bamiyan Buddha statue demolition which evoked little protests from the Muslim world but the Danish cartoons leading to unjustifiable violence in India & elsewhere by the Muslims leading to disruption of common life & death (ironically) in many muslim majority countries. It really is difficult for majority of the common non-muslims after seeing & reading about all the happenings in the muslim majority world to be non-partisan & be completely understanding of the muslim fellow country men, particularly in this world where patience and wisdom are fast vanishing virtues. I would like to state here that IMO - the majority of muslims are peaceful and going about their lives but completely scared or reluctant (deliberately ?) or not yet realising the necessity to unite & enforce moderation among the often misguiding mullahs (who trash modern education, aspects of life like insurance, women working in offices with other men, latching on to drunken or sleep-induced utterances of talaq to enforcing divorce, etc - issuing fatwas right & left,) & reining in the misguided people of their faith.

Do you ever find Hindu Temple Priests or Church Priests in India issuing religious orders,diktats on what to follow & what not to follow in the personal and public aspects of living to their fellow faith people or incite people to violent demonstrations or threaten govt & media like the Imam Bukhari of Jama Masjid ?. It is quite a contrasting and often negative opinion inducing behaviour of these Muslims who are the religious priests, care takers of Mosques & leaders representing the faith & its administrative organizations.

With all these happening - The complaints of inequality and discrimination of Muslims in places where they are in minority (hardly so in India with 15 crore strong population) and the appropriation of victimisation (sometimes unreal) by the muslim community then flies against its own face and sometimes is rejected . Its all self-inflicted in nature.

Sharique,

Well, all i am concerned is about what Muslim Majority countries are doing in this world. I am not specifically arguing about what prophets and lords have told their followers. If all the followers of their respective lords and prophets were to truly abide by their sayings - this world would really be a heaven. But the reality is the very exact opposite. So lets stick to the reality when posting and replying to queries.

Pls. forget about my post & its queries for now and do concentrate on the exams in hand. I can wait for your answers. Wish you well in your exams.

Thanks to both of you for having spent your time to post the replies.

Sharique said in September 19th, 2006 at 6:33 am    

Well Schacht you said this in your first comment
 

Is there a Hadith, using a concept like Takia or something similar - that can be stated & used by you group of Indians to have a go at us group of Indians or aid the attacker ?.
What does the Quran and etc rules of the Islamic Religion advise you people to do - in this situation ?

So I was looking for sources and now you say that I should base my reply on logic and rationality. And we don’t have ‘lords’. We just have one Allah.
Anyway thanks for the wishes….will get back to you by Thursday

Sharique said in September 19th, 2006 at 6:49 am    

BTW Schacht you would perhaps wanna have a look at this article http://indianmuslims.in/worldly-education/ and comments here http://www.shaarique.com/the-day-mumbai-was-devastated/#comments

Polite Indian said in September 19th, 2006 at 7:49 am    

Schacht:
I have read your questions and there is a hidden prejudice in the rational questions that you pose. It is a common to see people harboring such prejudices when questioning Islam and sincereity of Muslims. Not that I want to dwell too much on it but ignore me if my observation is incorrect.

The question that you are asking about Muslims not protesting against certain characteristics of SA state is very similar to asking why Muslims do not protest against acts of terrorism. Now how do you know that they are not asking these questions? Even if they are asking these questions how many people are interested in listening to them? The clerics issuing fatwas against everything might be a concern to you but they same clerics have issued fatwas against terrorisms. How many news channels have picked them and highlighted them? Here is an example Why Fatwas don’t work against terorists . That article has links to a compilation of all the fatwas issued against terrorism by Islamic clerics. But how many people know about it? Not many. why? Becuase those fatwas are not sensational. Fatwas issued by OBL(Osama bin laden) and his likes make news.
The quranic verse that OBL uses to incite muslims to attack infidels have been twisted by him. There are people pointing that out but who is listening? Here is an article that questions OBL’s innovation in using the quranic verse.

I can say that there are a lot of people questioning what you want them to question. I would suggest we highlight these incidents as best as we can to expell the false notion that Muslims are passive to such incidents.

You also contend, Why do you see muslims seething with rage agains Danish cartoons or against Pope’s comments and not in other cases.
This can be explained by natural human tendency. You tend to be less agitated against things that do not affect you.
An example is , When the image of Goddess Laxmi, or God Ganapati was used on lingerie in the west, it was the Hindus that made all the hue and cry and launched protests everywhere but when the Danish cartoons appeared or when the Pope made the remark No hindu reacted against it let alone leading protests. One can ask why this double standards?

Schacht said in September 22nd, 2006 at 7:31 pm    

Shaarique,

So I was looking for sources and now you say that I should base my reply on logic and rationality. And we don’t have ‘lords’. We just have one Allah.
Anyway thanks for the wishes….will get back to you by Thursday

Sorry - On that mistaken reply of mine to your post with references to the historical incidents - it didn’t occur to me that you were providing me some references from history that i had asked for. I was hoping that you would provide me some relevant quotations from sources like the Hadith, Quran and other Islamic religious scriptures. I had actually related to your post as an additional post to Adnan’s.

But I would like to again state that - to me, the real happenings in the muslim world are far from what seem to have been said in the Quran and the historical incidents that you have referred to. There is a real lacking of equal treatment of the people of other faith in most of the Muslim majority lands. Even Israel treats its Israeli Arabs with loads of equality than the treatment meted out by the Muslim majority countries to other faith people - that i had mentioned in my posts before.

Schacht said in September 22nd, 2006 at 8:48 pm    

Polite Indian,

To you, my questions may seem to be laced with prejudice.
For me, I have asked these questions to get some answers after having struggled with in myself to stop, start looking at almost all Indian Muslims in general with the prejudice and notions that they are basically a drag on India in many ways and incompatible for any peaceful, forward-looking, democratic country.

Just to give an example of how i felt recently about a certain instance. For some of the people, Even the government’s Polio Vaccine Immunization scheme is looked at as a Fertility Impairing Scheme. Now, I read the number of people affected with Polio is starting to inch very slowly up with that region contributing to almost 90% of the numbers and has even been found to have spread out to other nations. India is said to be the source of this negative development. Prejudiced - I was for a few minutes when i read about this, before i shrugged it all off to concentrate on the work in hand. I would like to completely ignore these news articles and not even read them if i sense a whiff of such tendencies being written about in them. But that will just keep my in cocoon of comfort - looking at the Positive develpments alone.

Its all been aggravating within myself since the periodic Bomb blasts in many places around India, starting from Last Diwali’s bomb blasts at delhi, the IISC shootout - killing a Mathematical professor and the almost killing of one of India’s best CS professor (did you know that more than 40 students from different departments were working for their PhDs and their work was interlinked to the responsibilities of this miracuously still-alive professor ?), the Varanasi temple bombings, Mumbai train bombings and now the Malegon bombings. In the middle, there have been numerous cases, where huge quantities of guns, explosives have been seized and a few potential bombings have been pre-empted by these interceptions. At no point of time in India’s modern history has the whole nation (its IT infrastructure, Power facilities-Dams-Bridges-Railway Stations-Airports, Government buildings) been under such a tense and beseiged atmosphere. The Independence Day, Ganesh Pooja anniversaries were so full of precautions and never before seen vigilance. Is this even a free country anymore where people can lead their lives without fear of death ?. There has been a common denominator in all these events.

As regards Hindus protesting the depiction of godess Laxmi or Ganesha - Did they even bring daily life to a halt in any corner of this world or indulge in breaking up of shops or public properties, indulge in violence and the resulting deaths. Please don’t compare apples against oranges. some of them protested and accepted the apologies offered and the removal of offending articles from the market. A drop of blood let out in the process ?.

When George Bush came to India - There were deaths of innocents in Lucknow (Hindu traders refused to shut down their shutters in response to the call by Muslim protesters and there was a communal twist here suddenly out of nowhere. Yes - I was overcome by prejudice then but managed to shrug it off.) due to a certain version of protest against Bush’s visit and in protest of India’s Foreign Policy of engaging with the USA.

Instead of choking myself with the negative emotions that arise with in me when ever i come across this increasing rate of incidents of violence in India and elsewhere - I am asking my questions here. I have already made that intention clear in my previous posts and have also stated that these are indeed tough questions to answer for people like Shaarique, Adnan and etc. Being the person who is asking the questions, which is easier than having to answer - I do appreciate them for their reply posts.

Let me state one of my opinions - the moment people of other Faiths are treated with equality by the Muslim majority countries and societies (they will only be required to treat others in the same way many countries have been providing muslims with equality and more facilities in their respective democracies & societies) the world will start loosing the grip of anti-muslim feelings that are spreading across many geographical areas. In almost all countries in the West and Asia - Muslims have been given their share of equal treatments and even pampered with doles, Social Support, Financial support to bring up their kids in the European nations. India has given its Muslims - not in the same scale as the richer Europen countries have done - atleast more equality and specific seperate religion than the Indians of other faiths have been given in the MuslimMajority Countries. This is not something that started yesterday or some years before - its been the case since decades. Let the Muslim Majority countries start doing the same to other people from sometime in the near future and the realisation for which - i have no idea of how or when it is going to take place or even going to take place at all. But i fervently hope for this.

Think of it - Why is their no real Anti-Buddhist or Anti-Hindu feelings in these countries or elsewhere around the world as much as there is Anti-Muslim feelings. In India - it may not be very openly apparent, but the common non-muslim Indian is starting to feel negative about Muslims in general (very much my 2 pence opinion and i don’t really want this to happen and read the end of this post for my reason). As more and more Indians of other faith mature into youth and beyond and comprehend how Indians and people of their faith have been treated/persecuted in their neighbouring/far away lands - they will start creating their opinions about the people in those lands and their own fllow citizens of similar faith. In the case of most of the Muslim Majority Lands and their treatment of other faiths - it is probably already apparent as to what sort of opinion is going to be created in the minds of these people of the future generations. Organisations like the RSS, VHP, BJP, BNP (UK) and similar political parties in other nations, the Roman Catholic church and etc orgnisations - will genuinely change themselves from the present path of confrontation and sometimes extremist reactions that they indulge in against the Muslims in their local places and towards Islam in general. Is it the case of - Reaping what is being Sown ?.

Let me finish of this post with the below -

Do you really know why you were born as what, How, Where you were born (as a male/female, a person of your faith/of other faith, to so-and-so parents in such-&-such a family of a certain region of a certain country, as a disable/abled, a dark/fair person & so many more such possibilities etc). Can you decide any of these important and trivial factors in any human beings development & growth - even before your birth. So it is a bad idea to treat anybody differently just because they are a bit different in their following, culture or faith eventhough they may not be source of negative developments, instability or any negative influences to the surrounding society and living systems. Who knows the Wrongly Treating people may be born as The Wrongly Treated people’ or get converted into something similar through turn of events. The Vice versa can also happen. The Doer gets Done sooner or later - then.

I hope you get the drift of what i wish to say. I could elaborate even further. But its been a long post already and If you have read till here - thanks for that.

Bob said in September 22nd, 2006 at 10:34 pm    

Sachacht why do you forget organizations like the rss and vhp. they have also committed crime against humanity and responsible, if no less as compared to muslim terrorists, for the violence in different parts of india. the recent bill passed by the gujrat government is an indicator of their biased attitude. religion should be strictly personal and why do you need a law to stop conversion. if people will find fault with religion then that means their are problems with the religion itself. supporters of vhp and rss have caused lot of trouble to the christain missionaries just because they were trying to woo the people there. why do they forget the fact that it were the missionaries that tried to emancipate the downtrodden from the clutches of untouchables and other social evil. why do they forget that their own religion supports division of society based on cast and which has finally shaped up in the form of exploitation of the weaker section.

Infact they have been extremist in their behaviour. they mostly initiators of riots in the country. they resolve to means that are so inhuman and immoral. doesn’t your religion expect you to be patient? why do you forget the fact that they burned grahame stains and his family alive? what was his fault? they have so barbaric so as to rape our ladies and even small girls. where were they when people were discriminated on the basis of caste? in fact they are ardent supporters of discrimination based on castism. and don’t forget the killing of sikhs in 1984….no one is pure of sins..its just the way you look at things.

i too feel so angered and prejudiced against the muslim terrorists but nothing less for the hindu terrorists even. they both are responsible for crime against humanity and its mostly retaliation that causes most of the trouble. if this country has to progress then organizations like these have to stop their hate spreading business…perhaps they can draw inspiration from christian organizations

Atlantean said in September 23rd, 2006 at 12:37 am    

Bob,

My two bits. We are all taught that all religions are the same in that they teach us to believe in and worship the same one God. Then what is the need for conversions? Does converting from one religion to another make a person worship a better or a superior God? Dont you think justifying conversion itself is like saying “If you belong to this religion, you’ll be able to worship God better or worship a better God”? Religious conversion is a divisive exercise and is harmful to humanity because it essentially portrays one religion as “superior” to another. That sort of thinking is incompatible with a modern, secular democracy.

“religion should be strictly personal and why do you need a law to stop conversion. ”

Yes, religion is strictly personal and that is why eyebrows tend to raise when an organisational entity such as a Charity Organisation or the Catholic Church gets involved in matters of strictly personal choice such as religious conversion and all laws are necessary to suppress this fraudulent behaviour and I appreciate the steps taken by Mr. Narendra Modi in this regard by passing the recent Bill.

“it were the missionaries that tried to emancipate the downtrodden from the clutches of untouchables and other social evil. ”

Their contribution is meagre in comparision with their Hindu counterparts and dont forget how, many of them tried to emancipate (not all, Mother Teresa for example tried to help people from all religions) - by conversion to their faith - but not by actively participating in social reform for the Hindu downtrodden within Hinduism. On the other hand, I can give you a list of Hindus who have tried to emancipate the downtrodden from untouchables and other social evils that exist within their religion and didnt go about poking fingers into matters of other religions - Mahatma Gandhi, Swami Vivekananda, Raja RamMohan Roy, Ishwar Chandra Vidya Sagar, Tanguturu Veeresalingam Panthulu to name a few - with great effect. Eradication of evils like Sati, Untouchability and the promotion of Widow Remarriage were done by Hindu reformers and not Christian missionaries.

“if people will find fault with religion then that means their are problems with the religion itself.”

Absolutely correct! If people find fault with their religion, then that means there are problems in the religion itself and so it is the duty and job of the members of that religion itself to reform and I’d wish to emphasize that it is NOT THE BUSINESS of any member of another religion. So why do Christian missionaries act as if they are God sent messiahs to reform another religion?

We dont NEED members of another religion to reform our religion. We are selfsufficient in that matter and we’ll help ourselves. Reforming our religion is nobody else’s business.

“why do they forget that their own religion supports division of society based on cast and which has finally shaped up in the form of exploitation of the weaker section”

Members of our religion are very well aware of the caste based society and that is why the above reformers took steps towards eradicating caste. Today’s members of our religion are also well aware of it and are actively fighting to eradicate this evil and I am confident we will end up eradicating it completely as we have done with sati. Intercaste marriages are rising rapidly and caste feelings are only coming down across India as education and social awareness levels rapidly increase.

“if this country has to progress then organizations like these have to stop their hate spreading business…perhaps they can draw inspiration from christian organizations”

Yes, absolutely true. Organisations which want to meet their ends throught violent, coldblooded and inhuman means such as the Bajran Dal should be banned. Besides, if this country has to progress, then organisations which interfere in matters which are strictly personal such as religious conversions should also be banned. They are inherently divisive. They pit one religion against another and project one religion as “superior” to another. They are a threat to national security, integrity, heritage, unity and the secular nature of this country and I support any law that stops them in their illadvised campaign of cultural terrorism - “Christian vs. Hindu” or let me say what the earliest Christian missionaries in India did - “Christians vs. The Uncivilised”, “Christians vs. The Savages”, “Christians vs. The Pagan Religion.” Thousands of Hindus were tortured, mutilated, beheaded and burnt at the stake by these Godsent messiahs during the oh-so-holy Goa Inquisition or should I say, coldblooded reptilian demons and hypocrites whose current head also recently said “Violence is not the way of God” while his own religion has a history soaked with the blood of hundreds of millions of human beings. Organisations like Bajrang Dal dont even compare to the Catholic Church in its coldblooded atrocites.

Sharique said in September 23rd, 2006 at 12:33 pm    

Schacht:

All these days I have been trying to dig in the ground realities regarding violation of human rights in Saudi Arabia. Well the thing is there are rules but what should be of concern to us are the practices. But then I wonder how do I justify my point when the Saudis and most of the Arab states don’t follow the Islamic guidelines. Fine I will try to argue rationally without being prejudiced or biased.

As far as religious rights are concerned the Saudi adhere to the ardent Wahabbi school of thought. They are opposed to the sufi sect in Islam and their practices, the Shias and every other sect which don’t fall under Ahle-sunnah-wal-jamaat. People take out processions during Muharram in India but its strictly banned there and similar celebrations. They have been strict with other religions as well, they have allowed churches and synagogues but not temples or gurudwaras. The reason being idol worship. Then they have strict rules regarding women, both muslim and non-muslim, covering themselves. But I think these strict rules are only in SA or perhaps Yemen, other Arab states are more liberal in this regard especially Dubai and Oman.

I fail to understand why SA’s stand on non-muslim affects muslims in India. C’mon they are no protectors of muslims and provided just lip service during the riots. In fact countries like US were more vocal in their condemnation of riots. We as Indian Muslims cannot influence SA’s decision just because we have, leaving aside religion, have no business to deal with them. India has been our abode and has given us religious rights so if a country doesn’t respect human rights somewhere else on the globe that doesn’t mean she reciprocates that. See its the way you look at Indian Muslims, not as a part of India but belonging to the 55 or so Islamic nations (remember the famous VHP’s statement- tumhara to 55 desh hai, hamara to sirf 1 hai). You are trying to alienate us based on our religious affiliation. This sort of mentality can be lethal for peace to prevail. Muslims are going to feel alienated and would fall an easy prey to extremists. Why do we need to prove our allegiance to the nation every time few fanatics with Muslim names, who justify their acts on the distorted interpretation of the Qura’n, kill innocent people? Why do people feel that the causalities and rescuers include only non-Muslims?

You need to justify your statements where you proved the victimized mentality of only Hindus in India.

 

Even Israel treats its Israeli Arabs with loads of equality than the treatment meted out by the Muslim majority countries to other faith people - that I had mentioned in my posts before.

And it kills Arabs from other countries! Don’t even quote Isreal…i can pull infinite links to prove their atrocities.

 

 

 

Sharique said in September 23rd, 2006 at 12:51 pm    

One more question amazes me. There have no reports of riots in Gulf, even when the Babri Masjid was demolished or during the Gujrat massacre. Hindus would have been ideal prey in the Gulf but nothing of that sort happened. I have never heard about mass atrocities or discriminations against non-muslims. In fact they do differentiate between a white and a non-white. So they have no soft corner for Indian Muslims even. Arabs don’t have the crowd mentality that few organizations in India are known for. And talking about Pakistan and Bangladesh, these are banana republics with absolute no sense of humanness (I don’t generalize this statement). I have cousins in Pakistan but they are arrogant enough to even acknowledge that because they are rich there (so much so that a previous PM of Pakistan was somehow related to my family). Its the problem with the people’s mentality there. They are no way near being Muslims and often make fun of us for being pious. So you see leave them out. I have just one thing to say- sab eek hi thaali ke chatte batte hai :P

And now the question that is of foremost concern. Why don’t non-muslims in gulf complain? They are happy in fact. You see Arab doesn’t attract people of intellect and there are not many in SA (non-muslism). And plus most of these Arab states are puppets in the hands of US. Their progress is always curtailed. (example Egypt elections)

Now coming to the fact that why everywhere muslim are somehow or other associated with violence. Well its actually it depends on how you see things. Perhaps i will write an article on it because this issue seems have caused a furore in the blogsphere. Sorry to disappoint you again…just couldn’t find time to pen down.

Bob said in September 23rd, 2006 at 9:58 pm    

Atlantean religious conversion is not about praying to better God. How can God be different for you and me? Conversion is more about social status. It has to do with frustration associated with one religion and the subsequent satisfaction upon change to another religion. Would christian missionaries have succeeded if there were no social divide? if there were no untouchability? and other social evils like dowry, sati, women exploitation and the patriarchal society that was forced by indian religions. there were no forced conversions.

“Catholic Church gets involved in matters”

It never does because it never forces anyone. It just presents an alternative.

“Their contribution is meagre in comparison with their Hindu counterparts”

I really can’t comment on the numbers but then why were the people dissatisfied with Hinduism that they readily accepted Christianity. that means that the reforms were not upto the mark and that the higher class were not able to accept the reforms in true spirit. even in cities ii find this ardent caste system. one of my hind friend one remarked “i think i should better ask the caste of a girl before falling in love” so you see that extend of penetration of this caste divide. no doubt education today has made many realise that this caste system is ab evil but then you needed western education to realise that! you couldn’t have done so without that, is it? and who brought this western education? and plus many hindu organizations like vhp and rss still support this caste divide…they are still ‘lala’ dominated and other caste are kept away from important positions (bangaru laxman was the only dalit to hold the post i suppose). most people these days reject this caste system because they have moved away from religion. its not the hindu reformist movements but its the rationality brought about my western education that made the change.

“They pit one religion against another and project one religion as “superiorâ€? to another.”
as i have mentioned above, its not about the missionaries enforcing their diktat but its about people accepting it readily. government should keep away from personal matters like religion and no other religion should take umbrage at conversions. let it me a personal matter. why do you fear when you think your religion is strong enough to hold on people.

and about the Goa Inquisition, every religion has a bloody history, isn’t it? but then compare and find out which religion has more and which has less, do i need to tell you the answer?

Atlantean said in September 23rd, 2006 at 11:00 pm    

Bob,

“It never does because it never forces anyone. It just presents an alternative.”

Yes, presenting money and false miracles is presenting an alternative right?

Presenting an alternative itself counts as allurement and inducement and that has been made illegal long ago by the Supreme Court. It’s a crime and the Church has been committing it all along.

Again, why should the Church present an alternative in matters which are strictly personal? Who sent the Church? Why does the Church think it is its divine ordained job to “present alternatives”?

“why do you fear when you think your religion is strong enough to hold on people.”

Why do you fear, when you think your religion is strong/modern/rational/western enough to hold on to people, whenever a fully constitutional law comes up against religious conversions? The Gujarat Bill was just following the constitution, that’s all. It doesnt affect Christianity at all! But I dont know why many of them are up in arms! Why do you fear things which may have no effect on you? Why are you so insecure?

We dont fear anything. We are basically protesting against injustice - naked subversion of the constitution by way of forced, allured and induced conversions by the Church, that is what we are against at. We are strong enough a religion. We have survived 5000 years. We have survived 1400 years of foreign invasion and brutality. That itself is testimony to the strength and resilience of our religion.

By the way, if your religion is strong enough, then why do you go about converting people? Your religion teaches “Love thy neighbour.” But the attitude that the Church sports these days is “Convert thy neighbour.” If your religion is so secure and strong, why does your Pope frequently talk about “converting the whole of Asia” and holy crap like that? Wont you survive if you dont convert or what?

Instead of spending that much money and energy in conversions, you’ll do much more to humanity by doing some true “Love thy neighbour” activity. A shining example for you in this regard is Mother Teresa. I have the highest respect for her. I look at her not as a Christian but as a great human being who has showered her love on millions of underpriveleged irrespective of their religion. She never went about converting yet propagated the truly noble message of love that Christianity has to give.

Love thy neighbour but dont convert. It’s none of your business. It is the wish of the person who wants to convert. Simple.

Schacht said in September 24th, 2006 at 9:06 am    

Sharique,

I haven’t yet started looking at all Indian Muslims as something like anti-India. But the circumstances & violence all around are such that these thoughts are troubling me now and i am struggling to deal with them - forcing me to take to the comments section of this blogging site and ask questions. I have a good number of people who are Muslim Friends, work-mates who are good people and who didn’t have any problems with Vande Mataram. Unlike some of the Indian Muslims - One specific person whom i know of at work, married a Classical Dancer Hindu Woman and didn’t ask her to convert to Islam before the marriage (as has been mostly the case, sometimes much to the pain of the girl’s parents who would have brought her up only to come to terms with the conversion - yes, fault these Girls also for entering into such a shallow romance) and allows his children to get exposed to both religions (eventhough there are many contradictions between the 2 religions). Maybe this person may appear as less-Muslim for you.

So here i find you, with your posts and arguments on Vande Mataram and hence my series of questions and comments with you. Maybe you are cursing me - damn, from where did this SOB latch on to my website and start accosting me. :))

Its easy for you to say - Pakistan and BD are banana republics and trivialise the terror they have allowed to be inflicted on their minroities (ofcourse gone scott free and now very miniscule % of minorities even exist). Looks like the mass persecution of Hindus in these lands at a high scale is something that seems to not even register in your thoughts. Its this mentality of Indian Muslims that gives rise to RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal resort to extermism against Indian Muslims.

I fail to understand why SA’s stand on non-muslim affects muslims in
India.
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.
.
See its the way you look at Indian Muslims, not as a part of India but belonging to the 55 or so Islamic nations (remember the famous VHP’s statement- tumhara to 55 desh hai, hamara to sirf 1 hai). You are trying to alienate us based on our religious affiliation.
.
.
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We as Indian Muslims cannot influence SA’s decision just
because we have, leaving aside religion, have no business to deal with them.

There you start your nth loop of the cliched rants of these days. Let me make it clear i am not alienating you just because you are an Indian Muslim. Don’t jump into such a claim just because i am posing some questions (acceptedly diffcult), highlighting the happenings and requesting your replies. Did i ever ask you to prove your allegiance ?. Haven’t i already mentioned that often & ironically Muslims die in their own protests. Go, Read through all my posts and you can sense that I am attempting to show the hypocrisy in the Muslim World and how actions against the Non-Muslims in the Muslim Majority world can & do have their repercussions in India & elsewhere - often negative for the Muslims. I want to say that in this inter-connected world, its not easy to disavow the acts of a group of people selectively and focus on the victimized claim alone. By the way - I wanted to state in my 3rd post that ‘Indian Muslims’ appropriate the claim of being victimized (too quick & not real sometimes) but my use of ‘by’ instead of ‘of’ in that post turned the meaning of that statement the exact opposite into potraying as though the ‘Hindus’ have been victimized. Thats a mistake of mine. These Hindus arent really victimized but just have to be careful when they go to their age-old temples or when shopping before their major festivals or when celebrating enmasse their Festivals. Get the drift ?.

So it doesn’t evoke concern or a sense of injustice in you that a Hindu or Christian is being discriminated and mistreated in the holy land of Islam & adjoining lands, persecuted in Pakistan & BD - just because they are non-Muslims (not even Criminals). So you don’t realise that such actions when perceived by Hindus/Christians in India and elswehere - is painful for them and evokes negative emotions towards those mistreating countries. Does it not seem to you that, until all these things keep happening, Indians of Other Faiths will channel these negative emotions of dislike, hatred against Indian Muslims whose religious affiliations are with those countries (and their cultures) and protest vehemently (often violently) against the US/UK/Israel in support & on behalf of the UMMAH and these very nations that mistreat people of other faiths.

This is one of the prime reasons for the anti-muslim reactions of RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal and similar organisations around the world. Seems like ‘What goes around comes around’ ?. That you dont realise this - is a bit suprising for me. So you seem to care only about your people. Maybe you need to put ypurself into the other person’s shoes often and try to look at the issue in hand from the other prespective too.

The aspect of Ummah is another faultline that makes the other faith people suspicious about Muslims (Even though Indian Muslims are treated as ‘Second-grade’ Muslims even in Malaysia and which ofcourse is quite ubiquitous in the Mid-east). Then all this ‘No to Vande Mataram (but yes to Any-Fatwa-For-Money by the same Vande Mataram Fatwa issuing ilk)’, other Inane Fatwas, Imam Bukhari’s recent friday prayer address that ‘Soon we will regain the power and again rule over this land’ to his gathering at the Jama Masjid. So you want other Indians to have no doubt that Indian Muslims are as Indian as others. As i told you earlier - thats difficult for all or a majority of other faith people - in this atmosphere of bomb blasts, terror motives of the certain UK Muslims to blow up flights and in times where Dawood/Memon-Abu Salem-Ibrahim Karim Telgi-Shahabuddin-Imam Bukari-Inane Fatwas like news features hog the media space.

When i hear of trivialising words like Banana Republics and etc from a person like you - Do you expect me to still censure the VHP and Bajrang Dal for having attacked Muslims after what happened at one of Gujarat’s railway station?. Maybe the RSS & VHP are also Banana organisations. They are not Hindu Temple Priests or Hindu religious leaders unlike Imam Bukhari and the Fatwa Manufacturers.

After the babri masjid demolition, the Hindus and Hindu temples in Pakistan and BD were attacked and destroyed. Whatever of these are leftover - is still game for the majority radical Muslims of those countries. Indian Muslims were taken to Dubai and elsewhere to come back and bomb Mumbai and elsewhere. Its still happening - the bombs, plans for the same among Indian Muslims already in or taken to SA, Dubai, BD, Pakistan to get the training. Let me state that the demolition was a criminal act and unfortunately the people who perpetrated it are still living scott free and thats gross injustice. But by repeated bombings - maybe those Muslim perpetrators feel they have squared off enough.

Pls do read this recent intersting article by a Pakistani news columnist.

Muslims are angry with the Jews. We are angry with the Christians. Pakistani Muslims are angry with Jews, Christians and Hindus.

Can we win by downing their high-rises or by murdering commuters?

We were angry with the Danes so we boycott their butter and their cheese. By the same logic, if we are angry with the Jews shouldn’t we stop using vaccinating needles? Stop using polio drops; end all vaccinations for Hepatitis B, stop using kidney dialysis machines, stop treating leukaemia and stop treating syphilis? Should we even stop using computers because the first micro-processing chip was invented by a Jew (Pentium-4 microprocessor and Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed, and produced in Israel)? If we are angry with the Jews shouldn’t we return our nuclear chain reactors, all our optical fibre cables, traffic lights, videotape recorders and everything made of stainless steel? Stop wearing jeans, boycott Baskins & Robbins, Dunkin Donuts, Starbuck’s and Dell Computers? Stop using Google as well as Oracle? We are angry with the Jews, Christians and Hindus. Angry, however, isn’t taking us anywhere. Angry won’t ever get us anything.

Shouldn’t we be even angrier with ourselves? Look around, what has been the Muslim contribution to humanity over the past one thousand years? Look around, how many items of daily use in our lives are Muslim inventions? After all, there are 57 Muslim-majority member-states of the OIC. Can anyone name just one Muslim country responsible for a major technological, scientific or a medical breakthrough? Can anyone name an Arab country — just one — who’s intellectual output has enriched humanity?
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Once again, angry won’t get us anything. Every Muslim wants the followers of Islam to become the dominant force. What then should be the winning strategy?……

Looking at the real reason for this article and true to a pakistani muslim & even an seemingly erudite person with the tag ‘Dr.’ - he talks about how they can’t yet WIN and make Islam a dominant force in this world. These widespread thoughts among the Muslim-Majority lands and also a section of the Muslim minority n rest of the world - of bringing the whole world under Islam and the efforts by the radical Muslims in that direction are the very reasons for non-Muslims to harbour negative feelings towards Muslims. Quite understandable now, isnt it - How Indian Muslims are affected by this craze in your Muslim World - the UMMAH ?. Islam may be dear for its people but don’t forget that other religions are also dear for the other people. Unless there is a serious shortage of self-esteem and conviction in themselves - people don’t resort to such tendencies of stupidly deciding to winning over every other different person into their own fold - at any cost. I can understand - maybe this is how converts feel. The need to be more Holier than the Holy ?.

It seems that you are quite agitated when the topic of Israel is brought up. Israel has every right to make itself secure & smash others who threaten it day and night by vowing to wipe it out of the world map, in conducting suicide bombing against its people- all mainly perpetrated by the Palestinians and groups like Hezbollah - puppets, people lacking strength of introspection and looking for the next tranche of financial aid & weapon infusion from the hands of the richer Sunni & Shia mid-east countries. But Israel treats its own Arabs without any discrimination. So per se - its not anti-Muslim or anti-arabic in the entirety of intentions. Its attacking people who are inimical to it and it happens to be Arabs.

So it pains to you when Innocent Muslims there are being atacked by the Israel when implementing in its blind pre-emptive security actions ?.

Now being who you are - Would you stop using or studying the many concepts in Physics, Chemistry and technology that Israelis and Jews elsewhere have discovered and invented ?.

FYI - Dubai and Oman are the only two countries among a whole swath of Mid-eastern nations that allow Hindus to have their temples. None of the rest !.

Tell you what - I am waiting for the next terror incident now that Diwali is in the corner and its been some time since the last happened. This govt. has been unbelievably impotent and lackadaisical in its efforts to thwart any of these incidents. So the PM himself, seems to have completely lost hope on his govt, police, IB & etc that every other week he is making statements directly to the public and warning them to fend for themselves and exercise care, through the press that ‘ Bomb blasts are impending’, ‘Fedayeen are on the loose’ and etc. Not just the normal times to live and We are all getting inured to this type of a life.

A bit tangentially…What’s your take on Jose Aznar’s statement…..

Jose Maria Aznar has criticized Muslim demands for the pope to apologize for his remarks about Islam, suggesting it is unfair when the Islamic world has not asked forgiveness for such grievances as the 800-year Moorish occupation of Spain.

.

Schacht said in September 24th, 2006 at 10:48 am    

Shaarique,
Seems like you have turned on comments moderation feature for your blogs. I understand that there will be certain posters who will stupidly spout hatred and profanities in an open for all comments section of the blog.

I am waiting to see how much of my last comment is going to appear if it is even going to be moderated for the ’straight’ content in it. I would suppose that will give me some information.

Appreciate you for having featured my comments till now and for having replied to them.
Thanks.

Noemaun said in September 24th, 2006 at 12:56 pm    

First and foremost, islam is a community based religion. In an islamic country most people will take break 5 times a day and pray together and thus increase their communal values. So non-muslims would feel left out. Thus hindus in Pak and other countries are bound to become extinct because it is human tendency to be with the crowd. So inevitably they will all turn to Islam. Whether they are good muslims, whether they pray sincerely etc depends upon the individual. How many of us wear traditional indian clothes dialy? Almost none of us during our student life. Because we get influenced by what is happening around us. Thus it should not be surprising to see no more hindus in pakistan. I do not say there aren’t those isolated incidents of harrasment. But there is no mass genocide like gujarat riots.

Why doesn’t it happen in India? Well that is because hinduism and islam are different in their ideology. and even in India, many muslims are partial hindus. Moreover Islam as such is more powerful over a person’s head than hinduism.

SA is a muslim country. It is islamic. Thus the religious rights of those who come there for work will be curtailed. Jews living in southern parts of saudi for centuries are given special rights because they are citizens. India is not a hindu country. It belongs to muslims as much as it belongs to hindus. Thus no sane hindu would claim that India should also have rules like them. But then fanatic hindus dont even recognise the fact that we muslims are a part of India. So I as a Indian muslim, see no need why hindus should be given any more freedom in SA to have temples.

I dont care to prove my allegiance to India. We as muslims in India do not need the mercy of a group of fanatic hindus to exist. We can not be forced by threatening us of gujarat like incidents. Death comes from Allah. And we know how to protect ourself. So if all indian muslims decide not to sing vande mataram, then indians will have to accept it. period. The fact that we muslims are ourselves debating whether to sing it, actually gives room for discussion.

First of all I do not even accept that non-muslims are being treated badly in the muslim countries. They do not deserve any special rights as they do not belong to the country. Who is asking hindus to go all the way to SA if it does not have temples. Not as bad as muslims are themselves being treated in their land in various parts of the world. Just as you would not accept that there is discrimination in India, I do not take your statement for granted. Some form of discrimination will always be there. But you exaggerate things to an extent beyond which your statement has no value.

Yes, it is the dream of every indian muslim that all non-muslims in india convert to islam by learning the beautiful teachings of Islam. There is nothing to hide in that. We are muslims believe that the Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We as Indians feel bad that so many of our brothers and sisters are not following the “right� path, Islam. Thus we as muslims pray that people see the real beauty in their lives. People understand and accept Islam, lest they continue to do all their bad deeds and face the wrath of God. And if people dont accept Islam of their own free will, it is between them and Allah. Allah will judge the followers of each religion and punish according to what is their hearts.

Knowledge comes from Allah. And jews are believers of God. A true following jew would be a better friend of mine that an disobeying muslim.

Sometimes so much evil gets into people, that they entertain thoughts of terrorists attacks which kill innocents just to malign islam. So much is the dirt in them, that they lose all logic.

Schacht said in September 24th, 2006 at 8:18 pm    

Noemaun,

Holier than the holy ?.

FYI, many non-muslims already pray to the ‘Allah’ in whatever fashion their culture has taught them to. It was Allah, the entity itself, that I believe has allowed us all to take life. It was the Allah’s will to see people come up with diverse ways of worshipping & praying according to their geography and ingenuity. So me being a creation of the Allah and hence you worrying, feeling bad about the way i worship the Allah is akin to feeling bad about Allah’s own creation. Feeling bad about me means you feel bad about the Allah. Isn’t that blasphemous ?. The paths are many but the final destination is one.

Do pray to the entity that people like you be provided with the faculty of reasoning, self-analysis, application of mind and rational thinking when following the faith. Pray for your emanciapation from the rigidity of your thinking and from the clutches of the source of brainwashing bigotry. Till then - operate at your base levels of understanding of the life and this world. A waste of life ?. Pitiably inconsequential ?. I wish your life from now on will be eventful enough to raise your life experience to higher levels of existence and moderation. Keep trying……….

hope the above makes sense to you ?. :)

Noemaun said in September 24th, 2006 at 10:13 pm    

” And if people dont accept Islam of their own free will, it is between them and Allah. Allah will judge the followers of each religion and punish according to what is their hearts.”

I suppose you missed this part of my previous post wherein I have emphasised that Allah will each person differently according to his faith, upbringing, culture etc.

I am very sorry to say that the number of devout hindus believing in God is reducing drastically day by day. This is something very unfortunate. Even the leaders of hindu fanatics like Tagodia have little faith in God. “Even if Ram himself where to tell me that he was not born in Ayodhya I would not buldge”.

As the faith of the hindus is being lost and is getting highly corrupt due to lack of God consciousness, Islam is the only religion that can rescue their followers. After all prophet Muhammad (saws) is a mercy to all mankind.

Allah knows best.

The Illusionist said in September 25th, 2006 at 11:29 am    

Noemaun and Schact I wish both of you can afford better glasses for your mind’s eye. Your numbers seem to have increased and you guys are perceiving pretty blurred. get a life guys. oops i meant get new glasses guys. It cannot be as bad as Schact likes to believe and can’t be as good as Noemaun likes to imagine. Accept some greys, there are going to be bad Hindus and bad Muslims and bad humans just as there are going to be good Hindus and good Muslims and good humans. Sounds simplistic?? maybe it is just as simple as that?
And i cant be responsible for my sibling’s actions. Being made answerable for some togadia’s fundas or some Saudi governments fundas is beyond my capacity.

Polite Indian said in September 25th, 2006 at 1:50 pm    

Schacht:

Just to give an example of how i felt recently about a certain instance. For some of the people, Even the government’s Polio Vaccine Immunization scheme is looked at as a Fertility Impairing Scheme.

This is pure superstition and ignorance and you will find something similar in every religion and every community. We need to deal with it in the same way. Educate people about the benefits. Beat the conspiracy theories and so on.

…the Varanasi temple bombings, Mumbai train bombings and now the Malegon bombings.
…The Independence Day, Ganesh Pooja anniversaries were so full of precautions and never before seen vigilance. Is this even a free country anymore where people can lead their lives without fear of death ?. There has been a common denominator in all these events

Believe me I am as pained you are on these incidents and our friends Shaarique, Adnan and others share the same pain. But it will be wrong to think of our Muslim brethrens to be on the terrorists side. You talk of a common denominator in varansi, mumbai and malegaon blasts? May I ask you what it is? Especially when you are clubbing Mumbai and Malegaon blasts together!

Please don’t compare apples against oranges. some of them protested and accepted the apologies offered and the removal of offending articles from the market. A drop of blood let out in the process ?.

These are not apples and oranges. I made this analogy noting the complaints that Why do the muslims prtest this and not that and the reason I was trying to give was the same as Why hindus prtest this and not that. As for as a single drop of blood not let out, the difference is in the degree of the protest not in spirit. Don’t take this as me condoning violence in any form. No but more on that later…

Let me come to the muslim majority countries that you have talked about in your posts. You have tried to compare the state of religious minorties in India to the state of religious minorties in thos countries. You forget one important aspect though… India is a secular democratic country and those countries are theocratic(Now that is apple vs orange). There is a big difference in being a muslim majority country and a muslim theocratic country. By chosing Islamic theocracy these countries have chosen to be governed by the laws of Islam. If the law of the land is the same as the law of the religion how do you expect them to differentiate in the same way as you and I, living in a secular democracy, can? If you are advocating that those countries should adopt secular democratic form of government then I am with you. I am all for it. But if you are blaming all muslims for not voicing concern over this I cannot agree with you. The Muslims living elsewhere in the world need not protest it. If they do it is a good thing but if they don’t I will fall back on my human nature reasoning from my previous post.

That the common anti-muslim feeling in India is gaining ground, is a fact. But what is worse is that it is gaining ground because some perverts like Osama Bin Laden and his likes are justifying their acts in the name of Islam. They have an agenda of getting every muslim on their side and every non muslims on the other side. What better tool to use than religion? Don’t we all know that religion is one thing, in the name of which people can do anything? This is why it becomes imperative for rational thinking non muslims like you and me to intervene and stop this feeling of anti muslim from gaining ground.

Now, if the objective of your questions and comments was to highlight the need of reforms im Muslim countries, I agree with you. I agree because I favour democracy over theocracy.
If you are suggesting that muslim societies need reforms in some of their social issues, I agree. Like with every society they have the needs to reform. Hindu society has had its share of reforms in the past. It still needs reform to get rid of the evil caste system. Similarly Muslim society needs reform. Believe me there are Muslims working towards it and I have tried to highlight that in my post here at http://politeindian.wordpress.com/2006/09/22/islam-and-the-non-muslims/

But if your objective was to blame Islam for all that, I cannot agree with you because at the base of it religion is pure but then there are people who use/misuse/misinterpret it for their own benefits. We need to be beware of that and support those who are trying to bring a change (nothing sort of a revolution). Don’t put the Muslims on the defensive because of the acts of some perverts like OBL. I will quote it here from my post As long as they are on the defensive, they can not be on the offensive (i.e. against terrorism)

Noemaun said in September 25th, 2006 at 8:17 pm    

thanks illusionist.

I have been to SA so many times. I have myself faced many harrasments which i would not like to mention here. i ve been harrased in India too. But at the same time, I have seen the beauty of Islam in the holy land. I have also experienced the caring attitude of my fellow indians.

But to justify violence or to make conclusions like Schacht is beyond rationale. According to your line of thought, Schacht is biased due to hate for muslims and Islam while I might be biased due to love for Islam.

May Allah guide us in the right path. Let ramzan be a month when we strengthen our bond between ourselves.

with salaams.

Bob said in September 26th, 2006 at 12:35 am    

Atlantean, why are you so concerned about the conversion thing and ignoring the good aspects of the missionary work? I do acknowledge that FEW missionaries have used crooked means to convert people but then there are always bad men among the good. You shouldn’t take the entire blame of forced conversion on the missionaries.

BTW you haven’t answered my western education question.

And regarding the discussion going on here i have few things to add. Western culture has been far superior to any of the islamic countires or india. I say this because look at the organizations representing hindus in india, vhp and rss. they spilt venom agaisnt the minority, people like our previous home minister led a rath yatra that led to riots, chief minister of a state is fanatically against minorities and just see the kind of acts committed during riots my hindu zealots. (they have raped women, burned houses with people in it even an ex-mp was not spared, burned cars with family members in it, tear open the womb of a pregnant woman and what not). so if india were to be a hindu nation then i am damn sure these fanatics would have ruined this country in no time. minorities would have been subjected to atrocities beyond imagination.

I say all these based on the fact that vhp and rss are representors of hindus and majority of hindus patronize these organizations, which is certainly not the case with christens or even muslims.

I now ask people who championing the cause of hindu nation, what do you have to say regarding my above points? sachacht especially

Atlantean said in September 26th, 2006 at 3:11 am    

Bob,

“Atlantean, why are you so concerned about the conversion thing and
ignoring the good aspects of the missionary work? ”

I NEVER ignored the good aspects of missionary work. I have mentioned Mother Teresa. I have lots of interest in, profound gratitude and respect for Christianity and Christian missionaries for all the good things they have brought. The Bible is a special book for me. I took Bible courses during my school days. I have great appreciation for it.

I am concerned about conversion because it is blatantly against the law of the land, just like I’m concerned about other illegal activity like corruption, terrorism etc. I’ve already put my case about conversion earlier. Please dont poke me repeatedly with “why are you so concerned” questions when I’ve already answered them before in clear terms.

“most people these days reject this caste system because they have moved away from religion… ”

Sorry, people are not moving away from religion but are moving towards religion. Maybe you base your arguments based on the “the number of devout Hindus is dwindling” conjecture. The fact is the number of devout Hindus is increasing as is evident from the large scale Hindu revivalist movement going among Hindus today within India and outside. The caste system is being rejected not because they have moved away from religion but because of higher social awareness.

“its not the hindu reformist movements but its the rationality brought about my western education that made the change.”"

If you studied some history at school, you’d know that the British actually refused to introduce “western education” in India. It was the Hindu Reform Movement that put immense pressure on the British to introduce “western education.” So, the credit goes to the Hindu Reform Movement for taking the initiative. Your “western educated” British never wanted to change the caste system. In fact, they tried to divide it further by propagating false, irrational and unscientific hypotheses like the Aryan Invasion “Theory”. They also limited “western education” to the higher castes (Brahmins) which ended up deepening the caste system.

“Western culture has been far superior to any of the islamic countires or
india.” AND “BTW you haven’t answered my western education question.”

Pity! Though the British colonisers have left, I see the colonial mentality is still alive and well. Such thinking or superiority complex is not worthy of a reply. It puts your shallow intellect on display but as a fellow human being and out of pity and love, I suggest you get hold of an NCERT Class XI history text book and have a read. Your mind needs much enlightenment.

To start with, northern India had advanced cities, mathematics and science, a monetary system, a buoyant economy as far back as 3000 BC during the Indus Valley Civilisation. Remember, during this period, people in the West were still grappling in their caves.

India had its own Golden Age. India had peaked in all fields - science, mathematics, arts, philosophy, literature, religion - far before the Age of Enlightenment and Renaissance in the West. I quote a few lines from an entry in Wikipedia. This wasnt written by any Hindutvawadi. This is a neutral source:

The most significant achievements of this period, however, were in religion, education, mathematics, art, Sanskrit literature and drama, and Kama Sutra, the art of sex. Hinduism witnessed a crystallization of its components: major sectarian deities, image worship, devotionalism, and the importance of the temple. Education included grammar, composition, logic, metaphysics, mathematics, medicine, and astronomy. These subjects became highly specialized and reached an advanced level. The Indian numeral system—sometimes erroneously attributed to the Arabs, who took it from India to Europe where it replaced the Roman system—and the decimal system are Indian inventions of this period. Aryabhatta’s expositions on astronomy in 499, moreover, gave calculations of the solar year and the shape and movement of astral bodies with remarkable accuracy.

In medicine, the Guptas were notable for their establishment and patronage of free hospitals. And although progress in physiology and biology was hindered by religious injunctions against contact with dead bodies, which discouraged dissection and anatomy, Indian physicians excelled in pharmacopoeia, caesarean section, bone setting, and skin grafting